In this episode, Maxime Sincerny, Marc-Antoine Rioux, and Xavier Champoux explore the intricacies of omnichannel marketing, highlighting its critical role in improving the customer journey and addressing the challenges of attribution. They discuss the importance of aligning business goals with marketing channels, as well as the transformative impact of technology tools on data collection and customer experience. With a focus on understanding purchase intent, they explore strategies to optimize conversions while keeping the customer experience at the heart of marketing efforts. The discussion examines the complex dynamics of modern marketing, addressing attribution effects, the role of communication channels, and the customer journey. They analyze attribution methods, acquisition strategies, and the influence of data on marketing decisions, while highlighting the value of authentic content creation and influencer marketing to effectively engage consumers.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (00:19)
Hi everyone, welcome to episode number 4 of Déclic with Xavier Champoux who has been a senior digital campaign manager with us at Bofu for six months now. Hi Xavier!
Xavier Champoux (00:32)
Hi, hi, how are you guys? Very good, thanks.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (00:33)
How are you? So today's episode we're going to talk about and it's going to be really less applied precisely to the entrepreneurial side like the last episodes or at least to talk precisely about business in itself. We're going to talk more on a theoretical level about talking about omnichannel marketing and everything that comes a little bit around the omnichannel that it creates, the impacts of that and how to understand it as such. Then Xavier will be able to introduce himself too but...
Maxime Sincerny (00:34)
How are you!
Marc-Antoine Rioux (01:02)
Xavier in the background, Long Story Short, did his master's degree on the subject
Xavier Champoux (01:08)
Thank you, thank you. That's a great introduction. Yeah, so as you were saying Marc, I did a master's degree on a thesis in fact, on what drives consumers to convert online. So, it touched on several subjects like the omni-channel approach, the customer journey, attribution methods, because there are a lot of things that come into play when we ask ourselves this question. So, with
This mastery, this thesis, we found it interesting to create some articles to be able to educate people on these subjects, that we worked on together, that we published on the Bofu site. For those who are interested, we can go see that. But yeah, I think that's what we're going to talk about today, the omnichannel approach, attribution methods, trying to better understand and then a little bit to declare these subjects, which are quite complex.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (01:58)
Exactly, it will be a good link between the theory precisely, then at least the principle in general, then to qualify it with what the reality is also applied to small businesses that want to advertise and use an omnichannel acquisition and amplification system.
Maxime Sincerny (02:17)
not yet, but I'm really looking forward to covering all the topics that it encompasses, all those nights, especially with all the things that drive people to buy online. I think it's going to be a great summary. And realistically, it might seem simple at first glance, but the reality, like most topics, is that you start to scratch a little bit and you realize that it's never as simple as you think at first glance and it's not as simple as saying, "Hey, I have a
Marc-Antoine Rioux (02:28)
Mm-hmm.
Maxime Sincerny (02:44)
and then magically people will come and order immediately on my website no matter the settings, no matter the value proposition that was made. I can't wait to get into the subject and discuss this with Xavier today. Thank you for coming on the podcast with us.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (02:57)
Exact.
Xavier Champoux (03:04)
It's a pleasure.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (03:05)
Yes, yes. Xavier, would you like to introduce yourself, tell us a little about your experience, your journey, and what brought you to this work and to us.
Xavier Champoux (03:13)
Yeah, yeah, listen, where do I start? I was very young, very interested in e-commerce. I think I was mostly interested in the aspect of being able to create, control a business from your laptop, pretty much anywhere in the world. I found that very attractive. So, I dabbled a bit in everything that was dropshipping, Amazon FBA when I was younger. I had a few adventures in that.
Afterwards, I did a bachelor's degree in finance and a master's degree in e-commerce, in marketing specializing in e-commerce with my thesis on what drives consumers to convert online. It's a major thesis. I did this in partnership with a major bank in Canada. So, I was able to touch all their data, which was very interesting. Also very much on the subject.
I was able to give them conclusions that they use today like what kind of attribution method they should take to analyze their data, what way they can use to optimize their data collection and what combination of touchpoints and customer journey paths they can invest more in to maximize their results. So, it was very applied as a memory, which is not always the case.
So that's very interesting. And as you mentioned, Max, precisely, it's the kind of subject that you think on the surface that it's perhaps a little simpler than we think and that we can get by. But ultimately, my thesis took two years instead of one to create. So I'm happy to share it through these articles too because it's a work that I put a lot of time into and I want people to be able to gain knowledge from it.
Maxime Sincerny (04:47)
...
Xavier Champoux (04:59)
So from that, once I had my thesis, my master's degree, I went to work as a marketing director in a company that is like a group of bars and restaurants. So, it's a company that owns several. So, I did the marketing strategy for these establishments, their online presence, all that. After that, I jumped from agency to agency.
to finally find Bofu which was a fit with my interests, so teleworking, flexible hours and that kind of benefits. So now I'm here. Now I'm very satisfied with my position, my job, and it's nice to be happy at work, which hasn't always been the case. So that's a bit of that for my background quickly. I think that today we're probably going to be more...
spend time talking about my theoretical research, more than my experiences elsewhere.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (06:02)
I think that a good question also, which is at the foundation at the beginning of talking about omnichannel, is to make people understand a little bit what we mean by omnichannel acquisition and amplification system, then we compare it a little bit to multichannel which is the other term that people will link together in terms of distinction.
Xavier Champoux (06:21)
Yeah, yeah. I think a pretty simple way to visualize it,
single-channel is like starting from a point right in the center and connecting it to dozens of branches that go in all directions, but come back to the same central point. Compared to the multi-channel approach, which would be dozens of branches that are not interconnected with each other. So a more concrete example would be
For example, if you go to a restaurant, the "multichannel" approach would be that you can order at the counter, on an app and in person, but these channels do not communicate with each other. So, this will make your order a little crooked, there would be no follow-up and there would be confusion from the kitchen, unlike the omnichannel approach where these channels communicate with each other.
If you start your order in person and then finish it on the app, your invoice and your order would be perfect because all of that information is linked to a single point.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (07:25)
Exact.
Maxime Sincerny (07:25)
A good example to make the difference. It's still interesting to see the example. I think it's a good example to always try a little bit vague, if you like, as a concept. I think that the majority of the concepts that we're going to approach are vague. Examples like that are always welcome. I think that precisely to imagine a little bit more what we're talking about.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (07:48)
Yes, exactly. Multichannel is also about limiting ourselves to a strategy that will affect a few platforms, and then we will say to ourselves, such a platform is better for such a reason, whether it is return on investment, engagement, or whatever. Whereas when a client asks us, what is the best platform, the answer is everything. It just depends on the campaign, according to what objective, and then what we are trying to do with the platform and the campaign.
Xavier Champoux (08:08)
Exactly.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (08:17)
It is possible to use all platforms to contribute to a single goal or contribute to multiple goals in itself.
Xavier Champoux (08:23)
Exactly, I think that each platform has its strengths, and then the omnichannel approach brings together these strengths, can aggregate them into a single strategy that will be able to weigh on the strengths of each of the channels, unlike a multichannel approach which would just be like, OK, well we're going to do ads on one platform, maybe another, and then not have any consistency in that.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (08:48)
Exactly, because ultimately, it makes a little bit of a transition with the next topic to talk a little bit more about why omnichannel has become essential, the same reason why you look...
a pair of shoes on an e-commerce site and then after that, she follows you on Facebook, she follows you on Instagram, she follows you on LinkedIn if you have a super high conversion value as such. Then you could see the shoes on MétéoMedia, anyone will sell advertising to Google as such. Then at the same service level, it's a question of the purchase cycle as such. Then how long do we want to stay top of mind, to be part of the discussions.
aware of the entire cycle, then to remain present in terms of awareness for qualified people But I think you also summed it up well in relation to the point of contact, then the customer journey which is not linear, then that it involves as much content as data, as management itself, marketing, sales, etc., but to understand that on marketing itself, well...
I think that the average touchpoints are something that varies between ten, thirteen touchpoints at the service level and it can almost go up to 20-25 touchpoints for an e-commerce purchase in itself before the brand is trustworthy. Is it sometimes at the organic level that it comes in? Is it the channel that is preferred? Is it Facebook precisely? Where do we focus? And how do we weigh it between that if we want?
Xavier Champoux (10:09)
Yeah
Marc-Antoine Rioux (10:22)
It will be interesting to touch on that a little bit.
Xavier Champoux (10:24)
Exactly. That's also where the complexity of this topic of the next channel is becoming more and more dense, more and more channels are available, more and more touch points are becoming necessary to achieve this conversion. And that also leads to another tracking problem at the attribution level. That's where the difficulty comes from which channels deserve more investment, which channels bring in the most results.
But these are all things that we can find answers to if we apply ourselves and take the time to use the right tools for that.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (11:03)
Basically, it's super important that even if we're on all the platforms, that we stay aligned with the business objectives of the company as such. That's what's going to dictate how we leverage each of the platforms to go and fulfill the objectives that were given by the company, and then that we work in the same direction as...
that advertising works in the same direction as sales.
Maxime Sincerny (11:26)
Exactly. Maybe open this discussion because it's when a question that is often asked by customers. precisely, my money is better spent where? It is better spent on Google, it is better spent on Facebook, is it better spent on LinkedIn? We should put everything on Amazon. And I think that if we want to put a small example on this, if I am able to simply get it out like that, but it is a little bit the same question.
Understanding your customer, how they can reach your product and discover that this product is a good solution for you. I find it a little bit like asking Staples to say, look, there's someone who came to pick up a laptop today, buy it at the checkout at Staples. But what influenced them to buy the laptop at Staples,
Is it the sign on the highway? Is it a TV ad for the Staples brand? Was it the Microsoft ad that announced the laptop and then he finally found it on Google after searching for the laptop model? Is it the radio? There are so many points, as you were talking about the brand a little earlier, that will be necessary if we want to form an opinion of the person, as much as in terms of do I trust Staples?
Do I trust that this laptop meets my solution? Does Staples have a better warranty? There, for that, goes the touchpoint of the website. Have I ever been ripped off by Staples versus a Walmart that, they, would have a warranty? A Staples would not have honored a warranty in the past. And vice versa may also be true of someone else who has a different experience. At a certain point, it all comes down to this touchpoint which is...
We can talk about numbers today, then channels, then things like that. At the end of the day, we have to take the time to remember that all the little numbers on the screen that we have in the reports, then the attribution of saying, the sale, where does it come from? Well, at the end of the day, it's a human who made a decision thanks to dozens, even hundreds of ideas that have been formed over the years in his head to say, I want this laptop, and I want to buy it at the office in bulk. So, even if we work perhaps more on the web, and our discussions are more on the web,
Xavier Champoux (13:25)
Mmh.
Maxime Sincerny (13:40)
the same reasoning comes the same way. Why would I buy from your website instead of buying from Amazon if you both have the laptop? Do I trust Amazon more or do I trust you more?
Marc-Antoine Rioux (13:44)
...
Xavier Champoux (13:51)
I think it also leads to an interesting point that adds another layer of difficulty to the task which is that there are both online and offline touch points to consider. So if you want to get the full picture of the customer journey that the customer has had before they get to the point of purchase, you have to include both. It also leads to a pretty interesting quote from John Wanamaker that kind of inspired my thesis topic which was "the money I spend on advertising is wasted. The trouble is I don't know which half."
This is a bit what inspired the subject of trying to better understand where the efforts are really going.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (14:28)
Mmh.
Maxime Sincerny (14:29)
absolutely.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (14:30)
100% and you know deep down
realistically also it is that there are many more challenges also of understanding because the reality is that according to the business model also are we in B2B, are we in Direct to Consumer, are we at the product level, are we at the service level, the reality is that the decision cycle to buy the product or the service will change enormously according to the context. In the Consumer we can be in hours or minutes while at the B2B level we can count in months or years, it is just to understand well
and that's a bit of the foundation and the why and how we do the analysis all the time at the beginning of the mandate to have the people to know to whom we are addressing, the audiences, how we want to communicate it, the USP of the company, their value, mission, vision, then to be able to really have all that aligned in the background to really speak well to the right people, regardless of the touchpoint, then to adapt this message precisely specific to each of the platforms, each of the channels that we are going to advertise.
Michael.
Xavier Champoux (15:30)
also where in the journey are.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (15:34)
Exactly. Because that's also the big reality that the majority of jobs that we're going to take over, the client will end up better understanding the intention versus their brand, versus a person who is in their potential audience but who has no need and who doesn't know that it exists for the moment. Is it from your experience as such,
when we talk about monitoring, metrics, everything that is KPI, what is the client... know, like there, I open a mega can of worms, if you want, but I think that one, to know which KPI to track according to your type of model, whether you are in lead generation or in e-commerce, but it has everything that is the understanding then the interpretation of the KPI.
and not only of the KPI but of its variation as such.
Xavier Champoux (16:24)
Yeah, this is again a bit of a complex topic, but data without goals, without KPIs, it's just numbers. So, it's important to set goals based on what the customer wants, but also based on their industry type, whether it's a service, an in-person product, an e-commerce. So, the KPIs are going to vary for each of them. For a service company, we're going to talk more about leads, about...
talk about customer lifetime value, retention rate. In a physical store, we will talk about the conversion rate as much as in an e-commerce, but about the frequency of purchase, the rate of return to the physical location. In e-commerce, we would talk more about average basket, return on investment, ROAS. These are all metrics that need to be considered. And these are numbers, which are what the conversion rate is talking about.
from one industry to another, whether we're talking about the financial industry or the food industry, these rates will also vary drastically. So we can't rely on the numbers alone, but especially on the standards of the industry where we can position ourselves, see if we surpass the results that competitors can have. It's also in these moments where we have to "narrow it down" a little to be able to draw meaning from these numbers.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (17:45)
Exactly. Because the reality is that we can talk about ROAS, and then a certain client or a certain company finds that our ROAS is super high, and then we are in the right place because our ROAS is high, but in reality, it can also show that we are missing out on a lot of sales precisely because we are ready to take less margin to perhaps double our sales and then increase the advertising budget as well. So again, it is important to master these KPIs to understand them.
how we're going to make decisions that are going to be aligned with our real business objective. Is it your business objective, is it to reach your sales or is it to have a nice ROAS? at least, where do we find the sweet spot between the two by knowing our lifetime value, our average margins, the platform fees, what comes around the transaction as such so that we can say to ourselves, to reach our desired sales figure, well, it becomes a reverse engineering of the calculation as such because we know everything.
our KPIs in total.
Maxime Sincerny (18:43)
Yeah, the worms stop coming out of the can. It comes with a lot of discussions, isolating a particular KPI and saying, listen to me on Google Ads in search, the cost per key which is $6, it's really expensive. I like my cost per click a lot better than on Facebook which is 30 cents. But the reality, value is often associated with
per click and then compared to the competition. If I am a company that sells pizza and I put on the keyword pizza near me, probably my $6 is well invested despite a 30 cents that was put forward to Mr. and Mrs. Average who is perhaps the right persona to say well, parents of family on Friday evening, etc.
But the reality is, is their soup already made or do they intend to eat pizza? Even if usually in their affinities, it is pizza enthusiasms, the reality is that we can forge several points with him, precisely displaying my brand of pizza to him every Friday. But the reality is that I know that tomorrow, Friday, my cost of 6 dollars for which the person who is looking for a pizza now...
Well, basically, saying, I need your product now, and if your website or your person on the phone convinces me that your pizza is the best one you have for me right now, you might sell it right away, you know. Whereas your 30 cents on Facebook, well, are, you know, the people who are going to see that 30 cents all ready to buy pizza tonight? Probably 95% already have their dinner on their mind.
and that pizza is not part of that. But it can be influenced for next week, for in a month, for in two months. And we will say, "Hey, I've seen this pizza displayed for three months, it must be good, they are always present in front of me, etc. And they are right next to it. It's just that the value remains in the background in relation to what the person's intention is, their mindset, and the place on which platform they are.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (20:31)
...
Mm-hmm.
Xavier Champoux (20:51)
I think it also gives an interesting point which is, despite the higher potential cost of the Google platform, its strength remains in the intention to purchase. So, despite the $6 being much higher than the 30 cents, the chances of conversion are much higher because the person already shows an interest in this purchase.
Maxime Sincerny (21:10)
Yes, exactly. It's like someone knocking on four pizzas one after the other, and you know, "Hey, I want pizza, I want pizza!" and the four of them make their little pitch with their web page, and it's, well, I choose you. So you know, you have a one in four chance of getting it while your impression while she's looking at cats on Facebook, well you have maybe a one in a thousand chance of getting it, this person, at this moment, you know. And there, well, tonight you know, you say that your pizza is 90% off, and that it only costs four bucks tonight.
probably your 90, you know, your chance in 1000, well maybe that turns you into more of a 1 in 20 chance. You say to yourself "well, I was thinking of eating something else, but 5 bucks for an extra large pizza, I'll try it, you know".
Xavier Champoux (21:47)
It's a good deal.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (21:49)
The reality, if you take it broader, is that there are common discussions that we have with many managers, namely, do you prefer to have 1,000 leads at 30 cents, but which are zero qualified and which have zero value for you, or to have a lead at 10 dollars which is super qualified and which actually converts into money? I think that's what we see too, and with several mandates that we've taken over, that we've...
excessively increase the quality of leads, but ultimately, our cost per click has also increased, and it's not necessarily bad because we were even closer to the intention, and the person was arriving more and more qualified. So we pay a little more for acquisition, but it's less time to manage it internally because there are fewer questions, they are answered more, and the person wants to do business with our services directly. So ultimately...
the closed lead costs us less than before, even if the qualified lead costs us more than before.
Maxime Sincerny (22:47)
Exactly, then everything seems negative at a certain point. say, my cost per thousand has increased. Why? Because we are targeting an audience that is more valued by our competition. Yes, it is negative, it does not cost more. But at the same time, you are targeting better people. You have to understand that this negative aspect, in fact, is an improvement. Our cost per key increases because precisely, the cost per thousand has increased. My cost per click has also increased. Subsequently, my acquisition cost
Marc-Antoine Rioux (23:07)
Yeah
Maxime Sincerny (23:15)
it costs me more, before it cost me $3 per acquisition, I mean, let's say, if the conversion is through a form, if we just want to simplify it, before it was $3, then now it's $30, but in the end, it's all increased, everything looks negative, but the reality is, in the end, instead of closing 1 person out of 10, we close 8 out of 10, well there it becomes a lot more interesting, and it comes from what you just talked about, from... but in addition you reduced
Marc-Antoine Rioux (23:38)
It's true.
Maxime Sincerny (23:41)
your workforce because you ultimately need three people who need to call all these people and then validate them and then they are not. At that point, well you may just have one person who responds to all the prospects who are qualified and who are probably interested in being closed and then you close maybe one in two instead of closing one in twenty.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (23:59)
And the other side, we bring it back to the e-commerce level, that's why we're going to talk a lot about recurrence rates, customer lifetime value and average basket, because in the end, it's these metrics that allow us to see if the customer is qualified or not in relation to their second purchase. And there, there's also a part that gets on board, that offers it, the product itself, customer service and all the other aspects of the company that make it so that it's not just the role of marketing, whether the person is satisfied or not.
of the product and the process as such. to all the other departments after, once the person enters our funnel or enters as a customer as such, it is really the company that works in unison, that creates the customer experience. Beyond just, when we talk about user experience, we talk about customer experience to understand how the customer progresses in their entire process that will touch.
the whole business as such and not just like washing their hands of it once they come back and that operations have to deal with that.
Maxime Sincerny (24:59)
Exact.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (25:01)
I think that this can also lead us to say, to have these KPIs, precisely, Xavier, we need a good set-up of technological tools too, and that remains a big part to refer to a house, it is downright the foundation of your house for whatever you want to build afterwards, to be sure that it does not collapse and that we do not have a problem later.
Xavier Champoux (25:21)
Exactly, especially with the new privacy laws that limit cookies, which was the tool that allowed us to connect customers from point A to point B. It's becoming increasingly difficult to follow these customers, their customer journey. Hence the importance of technological tools to be able to get around that a little, to be able to accumulate your own data and to be able to do precisely that
replace these cookies with other tools.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (25:54)
Exactly, and maybe Max you could tell us a little more about it, but precisely with the shift of platforms, precisely towards AI, everything that is followed by conversions precisely, then technological tools, well it is also becoming more and more important to do our own micro conversions, then secondary conversion, third-party conversion precisely to have this engagement data if we want which is less and less present, we also see it there, just the acceptance of...
of cookies as you were talking about Xavier with law 25, it's fun because now everyone has to be up front, but it also creates a problem in the sense that it's harder to make your experience even more relevant for the customer and be even less invasive to do it for lots of people or at least we can draw conclusions on a sample which is often much smaller, it can vary from one...
from 10% to 40% fewer people at the level of data tracking on average from one client to another to look at cookies. But it still makes a good difference, both in terms of the time it takes us to have a sample or can we draw conclusions. But in terms of the performance of the platforms too, it comes into play there too.
Maxime Sincerny (27:11)
Exactly. I think that just being aware that the absolute truth will not necessarily be in the platform. It is precisely understanding the data that is accessible to us. We must think even that a Google Analytics will not necessarily be able to do...
all the attribution of a person who It will be necessary to have announcements on platforms, they will see the banners going online, these banners can influence someone. The reality, we will not see it in the end, an attribution that this person saw a banner.
and then 30 days later to buy or 45 days later to buy. Like you said at the beginning of the podcast, well, sure if I want emergency service, and my cost is low, and you it costs $50 to help someone fix a problem immediately that was even water running at my house. But you're probably going to have a better attribution rate than the person who is directly on your ad arrives on the converted website. You can track it pretty easily.
But you know, if you sell items that are, I don't know, hundreds of dollars, well already there, it's very rare that people will just simply search, buy, and that's it. You know, you have steps of, well, do I have online reviews that I can go find? And then there you have like a little snake that goes a little bit across the web. And there, you lose, you know, with the tools that we have today, the privacy stuff, etc. But you lose a big part of that consumer path.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (28:41)
Mm-hmm.
Maxime Sincerny (28:41)
There are several ways to mitigate if we want or at least improve our understanding of all this. Often it's saying more that the budget is small, more that the user journey is long, but more that we have to be holistic in what we're going to look at. Should we just look at month-to-month trends in advertising spend versus revenue per month, look at data over three years.
find a benchmark of well what are the months that we know that were excellent months for us in terms of e-commerce or even in-store, branch, etc. that match months where we had spending and interesting income. Then you always try to benchmark yourself and improve the trend over time but you won't know that the person who bought such a product on such a shelf or such a product on my e-commerce site
It's very hard to say, she saw my little Facebook, after that, she saw on Twitter, after that, searched on Google, finally, well she went to an article in the press, then she came back to the site after seeing all that, then she bought, you won't have it. There are tools that will help improve this visibility. It will be several hundred dollars per month for the least expensive tools to add a certain level of monitoring. And again, it's not perfect because these tools will often generate a large part
algorithmically, and then say, if these are my data points, well, I can assume that, basically, the real numbers should be closer to that. That's what analytics is going to do, that Facebook is going to do more and more, Google is going to do it too. So, it's a question that's always difficult to answer because yes, I would like to say, well, it's like in the past, you know, even in the past, we always had a, about a 15, 20%, you know that it was like...
visible, it was felt that we didn't really have all the data of all those who were influenced. And now, it's just not that because that's it, 15-20% there, invisible. In addition to cookies, which will often have a refusal rate of 20 to 35%, that we have to sound more adblocks, more people who use the same browser who don't track cookies, more you know, let's say, with Apple, then you have a lot of...
Marc-Antoine Rioux (30:34)
Mmh.
Xavier Champoux (30:44)
more Ad block
Marc-Antoine Rioux (30:46)
VPN
brave
Maxime Sincerny (30:54)
of devices now that will just block also for privacy, goes up to now, Apple, if I remember correctly, if you receive an email via iCloud, then basically, Apple's email platform, I think, basically, now, it's automatically, Apple will open the email for you, and then 100% of your emails. So now, your opening trick is even more real because people are on iPhone, it's going to be blocked by, well, it opened it.
and if it doesn't tell you, the machine thinks it's been opened, but at least you get privacy on whether you've opened an email or not. It's good for Apple consumers, it's good for Apple for their own pitch to their customers and their system. After that, it's sure that advertising-wise, it takes away our visibility at that level. You always have to take all the elements and try to make a story for it, without any expensive paid tools.
The reality, precisely, as Marc was talking about, is to have copies that are a little softer than epileptic, that are more instantaneous. We're going to talk about a quiz that will give you access to the person's email, and to have precisely... Exactly, to have just dice.
Xavier Champoux (32:04)
add, cart, stuff like that.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (32:06)
Lending page view, anything that is engagement that is not the main conversion that will dominate towards that, that we can track a certain engagement of the person, it can even be a minimum time spent on page, and then no matter what we want to dictate who is engagement or at least who makes the difference between a person who has an interest or a person who qualifies as such.
Maxime Sincerny (32:15)
Exact.
Exactly, and then there, it's about making history with that. A good example is to listen carefully, is it the photo on my ad that's not working? Is it my advertising message that's not working? Then there, you can just, it's just that it takes a lot of time to analyze, but it's to say, well listen, I have so many thousand impressions, let's say I have 60 thousand impressions, I'm going to have 5,000 people who have been like affected in the advertising platforms. Subsequently, of these 5,000, there are 1,000 who clicked on
my ad that went to the website. After that, in Analytics, you can see that on your Lending page, which is the product in question, which is the example, we had 800 people who went to the Product page. Once they went to the Product page, there were three who bought. OK, well there, we may have a problem more at the level of what is the offer that I have on my page, am I interesting? Do I convince the person to buy from me now? then, you have a lot of other little details, like if my clicks, it's...
If my product, I don't know, it's black television controller, that basically, it's my product, then the Google search, that we had clicks, then who arrived on the website, then people search for black television controller, but essentially, we can still understand that the intention matches the product. After that, is your product the right one for the person? Well there, it's to see, you know, there, are you doing good? Is someone else selling the same product as you for 5 bucks less?
There are so many things to look at that can cause an ad not to work. It goes all the way down to does my business model work to be able to advertise and be profitable.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (34:03)
See you next time
Xavier Champoux (34:03)
It also goes as far as the loading speed of this website. There are many small details like that that can impact a customer's spontaneous decision.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (34:11)
Mhmm.
that all the technical side works and that everything is correct, after that, well yes, indeed, once all that works and is optimal, well it is sure that you fall into the offer, into the product as such, into the service, into the expectations of the customer, into what the person is looking for versus what is their real intention, a bit like we were talking about painting, that you are looking for...
a painter for a mansion or a 4 and a half, it's the same search there, you only target people who are looking for paint for a mansion on their search intention only, without understanding the persona behind, then the lifestyle habits, then all the other touch points that we can have there to target the right people who have this search there, but who are qualified. This is where the omnichannel system takes on its full meaning too, then the knowledge of the person, of the industry, their desires, then of...
Everything that comes around, basically, just his search intent makes the difference between a good lead and a bad lead.
Maxime Sincerny (35:12)
Exactly. Then... Well, because it comes down to the fact that yes, the platforms will try to give a certain attribution because that's why we're going to plug a Facebook Pixel into the site, that's why we're going to plug a Google Analytics, that we're going to connect to the Google Ads advertising account. We're going to have a Tag Manager that's going to try to take more data in the background if we want with the APIs and then transfer that back, let's say a Shopify, that we're going to be able to connect the elements.
and basically, will take the information directly from the platform instead of leaving it to each person. Then we can formulate certain attributions. But again, at this point here where we are now, is it the truth? Probably not, I need to know what Facebook is telling me that there is an attribution. I can take it into consideration for a particular month to say, I spent $1000 on Facebook, then I made $3500. Then same thing, Google Ads, which will give me some attribution. I spent $1000 on Google Ads.
I made $5,000, then they'll say, well, overall after that, I also have my copy which is more the efficiency of the expenditure for that month, if we want to put it a little more solo, and say, well I spent time, and I made time. So there, I have my Facebook attribution, my Google Ads attribution, I could say, eh, but Google Ads, I made more money, but you have to be careful because sometimes, we always make some, and we've already tested it in the past. Facebook seems less interesting because it costs us, I don't know, $60 per purchase.
Then on the other side, there's Google Ads that says $5 per purchase, random number. Like that one seems much more interesting. But the moment you cut off Facebook Ads, hop, magically, your Google Ads sales disappear, then your cost per purchase increases drastically. That's because you realize that you've influenced a lot of people on Facebook. Facebook doesn't have the attribution of all the people who influenced. Then there are a lot of people who came looking on the web.
They might look at, if it's a real business, if you make sense, if your offer is good, if there are other similar products that would better suit their needs in terms of price versus features, etc. Then finally, they search for you on Google Ads. Google Ads has the last click in terms of attribution here. There, it seems like the hero, but the reality is that you wouldn't have had just last click there which is probably on your brand protection, and then precisely the person who is looking for your brand in particular or who has just searched for the product and who has reviewed you, and then there, he bought it.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (37:13)
Mmh.
Maxime Sincerny (37:31)
You always have to be careful and it's hard to say, yes the person spent you $6, now you made $8. Ok, well magically I can be a millionaire because instead of spending $6, I'm going to spend $60,000, but it doesn't work the same way.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (37:33)
...
And I had said that, Xavier, precisely, I think that leads to talking a little about the principles as such, about everything that is Carry Over Effect, Spill Over Effect, and to explain a little bit what Max has just illustrated with an example but of the carryover effect which is everything that influences in the background at the level of the campaign and everything that is the Spill Over in relation to all the platforms want to give themselves the attribution of a sale.
So like Max says in his example, Google says you sold 5,000, Instagram and Facebook are going to say you sold 5,000, and you look at your Shopify and you don't have 10,000 sales, you have 5,000 sales.
Xavier Champoux (38:24)
That's exactly what I was going to say. I was going to say that the platforms want to fight to have the merits because precisely for them, these merits are directly linked to their revenues. If we believe that Facebook brings in more conversions than Google, for example, certainly we will be inclined to invest more on Facebook. So each platform has a little incentive to take the merits of this conversion. But I think that's also where
Attribution methods come into play in a big way. So how attribution methods work is it kind of has two types. It has single touch and it has multi touch. Which was a really big point in my master's degree is that I think single touch attribution is just wrong. So that's one way of looking at and looking at this data.
which does not give the complete picture of the customer journey of conversions, all the slightly more complex points that we have just mentioned throughout this podcast. So, simply giving the merits of the conversion, whether it is the first or the last point, is not representative of what happened. So when we talk about multi-touch conversion, there we enter into a...
in a way of looking at data that is much more representative of what the consumer is experiencing. to your point, Max, if Facebook had not influenced people initially, conversions on Google would not have happened. So, everyone brought something to the conversion, so points to consider. the secret also comes there. How do we...
gives these merits? Is the beginning of the conversion more important than the end? Is the end more important than the beginning? I think that, depending on your industry, depending on your type of products or services, different attribution methods will be more relevant for you. I also think that it comes... there is no universal answer. It's a case-by-case basis for attribution methods. On the other hand, think that the solution a little...
universal for everyone, is to consider more than just one touchpoint because as we have established, each conversion can take between 10, 60, 100 touchpoints before reaching that conversion. So, it doesn't matter whether it's the first or the last, if you give all the credit to that, it's wrong. So, that's a bit where we have to play to find where to invest our money best, when we talk about advertising. That's also the difficulty across
cookies that are good and that are not as present as before, then through where we find our data, then which platforms to believe. So, I think that the key, remains all the same to consider several touch points in the attribution, therefore not to use the attribution methods like single touch to have a clearer idea of who does what and who contributes as much to the conversion.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (41:41)
It is certain that when we talk about a model as such, at the base, it is really data driven, if you like. Everything is really "led" by the data, but also with the understanding of how the brand interacts in there, then how people and humans in the background, will have to make these decisions, considered competitors, etc., will perceive that at the level of the unique value of the product. But beyond that, to see...
Xavier Champoux (41:48)
Mmh.
Mmh.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (42:08)
the company's values, etc., and that these people can really associate themselves with and live well with the purchase they have just made, knowing everything that comes with it.
Xavier Champoux (42:17)
also thinks that Data Driven Attribution would surely be the most true attribution model, because it is based on all this data there precisely. But it is not a luxury that all companies can have because it is necessary to have this data there in the first place to be able to benefit from this attribution method.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (42:34)
Exactly. It starts from the foundation of the house so that in the end, well, it is well aligned at the top and then everything happens when we put the roof there. 100%. And maybe if we talk precisely, we talked a lot about how the touch points interact with each other, a little bit of the process, the whole team. But if we talk about the touch points themselves, then the channels themselves.
Xavier Champoux (42:43)
Exact.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (42:57)
Could you tell us a little bit more about the different channels and how they interact a little bit in each one and then what we see in terms of trends in relation to that?
Xavier Champoux (43:06)
Yeah, so we can associate a platform with a channel so whether it's Facebook, whether it's Google, whether it's LinkedIn. They're all individual channels. Then also, we have to take into consideration the offline channels, billboards, television, going to the store, that kind of advertising in the newspaper, whatever. Each channel has its benefits. So if we take Google's for example,
Paid search is very good for targeting search intentions. To come back to the example of pizza that we took earlier, that would be the strength of this channel. Then, it is positioned more towards the bottom of the funnel. So, that means that the customer already has a concrete idea of the needs that he would like to resolve against, if we take the Meta platform,
with Facebook, it's a channel that is much more focused on awareness, notoriety, and then the discovery of new services, new products. So here, we're talking about a channel that is much more focused on the top of the funnel. So, these are channels that are often underestimated because there is no conversion, most of the time, that is directly linked to these advertising efforts, among other things through the type of
display placement which is a placement necessary for conversion, but which never has the merit of conversion. It is a placement which allows you to plant seeds which will germinate later in conversion.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (44:40)
...
Xavier Champoux (44:47)
channels have their interest, each channel has its benefits and disadvantages, but they are all necessary to achieve conversion. So we can't underestimate any of them, we have to invest a little everywhere, but invest strategically where each channel brings its strength to the marketing strategy.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (44:57)
exact
And maybe if I can make a small nuance, that's really on the acquisition side because the beauty of the principles of omnichannel precisely is that at the amplification level, all these platforms will have their role to play also in the background at the level of amplifying the brand, amplifying the service, amplifying the product as such, but only for the people who we know have already been qualified, who have already...
a conversion, whether it's primary, secondary, third-party or pre-takeover conversion, but depending on our goals, depending on their customer journey, it has the amplification part or is it staying in front of the customer, whether it's on LinkedIn, on Amazon, on Facebook, on Instagram, knowing that they are qualified, is worth a lot. After that, we can be at the bottom of the funnel on Facebook because it's 30-day remarketing, just as we can be at the bottom of the funnel 30 days.
TikTok also at the limit, will it convert as much as our Facebook advertising or our bottom of the funnel in display on Google? At this point, it's about understanding the whole strategy, understanding the channels as such, how they work together and understanding our persona behind it also to come and see according to these platforms what works, what doesn't. But the fact remains that with omnichannel...
as much when we are in acquisition, which can have a strategy specific to each platform, as you say Xavier, which is totally 100% accurate at this level. Then after this amplification level, that's where we have the difference to say, we can be at the bottom, then in the middle of the funnel almost, on all platforms as such, it just depends on how we are technologically equipped to segment these audiences well, then to make good use of them later at the level...
advertising.
Xavier Champoux (47:02)
Exactly. I also think what's interesting in what you're saying is that per platform, there can be several touch points. So, you know, per channel, several touch points. And that leads precisely to the carry over and the spill over effect. The carry over effect is really that the customer will go through the same channel several times before converting. So, that would give more weight to that channel.
of merits to conversion. That's quite difficult to track. Then the spillover effect which precisely, the customer, would move from one platform to another, then would end up converting on a third. Those are effects that must be taken into account precisely to achieve precision in our analysis to attribute these merits. Basically, precisely, all this brings us back to the question of which channels deserve these financial investments.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (47:34)
...
Exactly. Then if we talk about everything that is the customer journey, then everything that is like a little hierarchy of needs, then at least how the person will interact with the whole advertising cycle, the sales cycle, then we can connect a little bit how the person thinks behind versus the touchpoints. I'm curious to hear you on this subject.
Xavier Champoux (48:23)
For this again, there is no universal answer. There are several consumer psychology systems that have been created, that have been implemented and tested over the years. I think the answer is an amalgam of all of these methods. So we have the hierarchy of effects, we have see, think, do, care, I think, yes. Then we have AIDA as well.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (48:40)
...
Yeah.
Xavier Champoux (48:50)
which has another in the same principle which is awareness, interest, desired, action. So, the customer will go through several mental stages which are somewhat represented through the customer journey. So, the customer must start by knowing your product or your service to be able to even consider it as a solution to his problem. Then, he must have a certain interest. precisely, he must have this problem himself to be able
consider your service or your product as a solution. Then, he must have the desire which reinforces precisely this desire to buy this product, to take action. And precisely, the last one which is the word take action which goes to conversion. So, all these steps there a little bit of mental which must pass from one step to another and represent through the customer journey, through the touch points, through the different channels.
through the different strengths of these channels precisely to move from one stage to another for the customer precisely so that he can come to the conclusion himself that he needs this service or this product to meet his needs.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (50:02)
You also bring up a good point where we're going to put a lot of emphasis on that too when we're going to talk about acquisition and then understand the evolution of acquisition in relation to the top of the funnel, or are we going to have a person who is qualified in relation to our audience, persona but who won't necessarily have a problem or a need that will arouse our product, service or solution and then bring it down to the intention and then to know the brand.
But it's still very important to separate everything that is intention in relation to the brand and intention in relation to the products and services to understand where people are in the customer journey too. If the person is familiar with the brand but has never bought, if the person has 60 purchases knows the brand very well or a person came in because they had the intention for a product, did not know the brand.
But the fact remains that we will interact very, very differently with these three people. The types of content will be different because we will have different objectives to help it progress if we want in the funnel and to educate it. It is also still interesting to understand the contribution of the brand in this whole ecosystem versus the contribution of everything that is advertising that will make people discover the products, services, etc. that will lead to knowing the brand following a need that...
did not contain the mark.
Xavier Champoux (51:20)
If I can add on this point, I think that it is also, leads to the point of soft conversions that we mentioned earlier of track, steps before conversion like the basket, like visiting a page, all that, precisely to be able to have a better vision of where these customers are in the customer journey and precisely subsequently with re-marketing, to be able to personalize these advertisements precisely to reach customers where they are in the funnel.
Maxime Sincerny (51:50)
Yes, exactly. After that, that's just why it has a certain importance to just all this understanding behind there because if you don't have a lot of budget, then you know, one of the reasons why in our analyses, when we start working with a client, we always start from the bottom of the funnel to the full, because the reality is if you don't have an 800,000 budget per month, if you don't have a 60 million budget per month to spend, well you might not make your funnel full, that the reality is a thousand dollars to spend.
You can make sure your foundation is right. I'm going to skip over bits at the brand protection level, the bottom of the funnel for the person who already knows you, who might have already bought. If we step up a little bit, if I have a thousand dollars to spend, that's where I should spend it first, and then where should I stop. If I have a cat training school, let's say.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (52:21)
Mmh.
Maxime Sincerny (52:45)
I go on Google and I spend $1000 on keywords of people who are asking the question how I train my cat, how I make my cat do tricks, etc. Well, you probably have a good chance of converting this person immediately with my small budget. And when you have a small budget, often it's because you need this income to reinvest the budget. So often it's because you're going to stop at that. Are you ready with a $1000 budget to just like attack the entire market and then take market share?
and to be the reference if we want on your territory, probably not. Maybe that's precisely more than your budget grows, and let's say, that we say that the person has done the education for cats, she has food, she has everything that a pet store would have in addition, well there it is precisely, you what can we cover in research to attract people who have this immediate need there in my business territory, or at least that I know that I don't have too much competition.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (53:16)
the reference.
...
Maxime Sincerny (53:42)
because the bigger you get these territories, it's another factor. If I have six pet shops between the person geographically and us, then precisely this intention of the person who is looking becomes less and less valued if you like, at least becomes less and less interesting because they have six choices that have an advantage over me. They have less mileage to do to get to and then return home to their home. There is always a percentage of people who are going to be...
our ideal prospects who are ready to convert, then a large percentage who are just an ideal prospect, but who will not convert with us for several reasons, then everything has to be adjusted in that direction.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (54:21)
Exactly. Even simpler than that, it's that really, the lower we are in the funnel, the higher and easier the return on investment is to obtain. This is often where we will have our hobby horse if we want, as much at the level of a Google Ads as at the SEO level. It will really be in the middle of the funnel to say, do you have a brand, but people come in just because of your brand and not because of your initiatives in relation to the intention of the product or service? Or is it that you have...
Maxime Sincerny (54:28)
...
Marc-Antoine Rioux (54:50)
conversely, no brand, it's just systems like that that do the acquisition, it's not necessarily better either, we're going to want to develop the brand, and at least that all the intention that will fuel sales as purchases of services, we're going to want to develop the brand also so that the brand can contribute, so that it's not just dependent on our technology, the quality of the ads, the writing, the SEO, this or that.
the brand still has a big impact on this.
fewer acquisitions that are made at the mid-funnel level compared to intent because they will have developed the brand well, will seek to grow the brand, but will miss out on a lot of intent traffic if they do not do this work as well by relying only on the brand. It is important to keep the balance between the two.
Maxime Sincerny (55:39)
Exactly, and then at a certain point, more
budget grows, the more your opportunities grow to reach people higher up the advertising funnel. But the
also to say, the immediate return will be much less. If we go back a little to the people, where is he in his journey if you like, of consumer, the reality, someone who has already bought from you, it is sure that he will be very easily...
You wait for him in a banner and you know that he has already bought from you, there, 90 days, then you assume that he is satisfied, well it is sure that if you raise him a 20% for the same product which is consumable, well that risks triggering him to buy it right away. Your return on investment will be very high, but you affect a consumer who already has it done at your place because he knows your brand. He has your need, then you satisfy it But for that, if you raise a little more, well as you were saying Xavier earlier,
he knows he has a need, he knows he wants to fill it in a certain way, he's looking for a way to fill it. Then there, he has the choice of you and several other brands. that you help the multi-touchpoint precisely to, yes, try to capture his attention. Now, try to show as much as possible as quickly as possible on the website or whatever media you choose, whether it's video, etc. That your brand is better than the others for, basically, his problem.
Then you go even higher. You try to reach them precisely on a Facebook with interests and everything. You know maybe that the person, deep down there, there are lots of ways to target people. But you say that the person is already in the market to buy dog food. Well, at least you know that he has a dog. after that, does this person need to train his dog? We don't know for now. Except that if you really want like a certain scale, you will offer your service.
you have to be able to have a solution that is good enough at some point so that the person who doesn't have a problem right now, sees your ad, sees your solution, and then says to themselves, I don't have a problem, but I have a dog. Finally, my dog, pees everywhere at night. Okay, that's true, I have a problem. and then, you can find out from the ad or something like that. I didn't know he had solutions for that. And then, you try to pull it down, and say, we have a solution. You download this e-book for $50.
and it will help you to give some solutions to solve it. finally, is this person who bought this, a touch point, and it's a really good touch point because you make him buy an ebook for cheap, which may not have solved his problem, but he sees that you know what you're doing. Oops, but there, maybe three months later or immediately after he bought the ebook, he puts up ads for private consultation at home, and that there, it's more like $600 for you to go and do the consultations.
Maybe he's not convinced right away, but you do the PDF, it would improve it a little, not quite. Maybe solve the problem, you if he comes and offers his converted service, then he's happy, you know. After that, there are lots of other discussions from him, he's going to create touch points with his friends to say, "Hey my dog, he's been peeing at night at our place for 15 years." Then there, magically, I got for 600 bucks, he came to solve the problem, then it doesn't happen anymore, you know. Then there, his friend is going to be like, "well, better.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (58:51)
Mmh.
Maxime Sincerny (58:54)
touch point possible, the best influencer is your best friend who tells you he is really good, he solved my problem and my problem was terrible. you, your dog pees from time to time, it is sure that he can solve it.
Xavier Champoux (59:05)
think there's an interesting point that we can add to that, that's what you said. Maybe the first purchase will be the e-book. Afterwards, the customer will come back and then buy a bigger service. These are terms that we call upselling or cross-selling. So, if you are able to bring a customer in for a small purchase, it will be easier to convince them to make a bigger purchase from you later or to buy a complementary product to that.
From these small touch points, from these smaller conversions, it becomes easier and easier to retarget these people who already have a higher level of trust in your brand to convince them to look a little more at your inventory of products or services.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (59:49)
I think it also went well with the conversation about Law 25 cookies etc. and why CRM is a formidable tool that no one really can do without if their goal is really to optimize their acquisition in the end and offer the best possible experience to their customer.
Maxime Sincerny (59:49)
Exact.
Xavier Champoux (1:00:08)
especially with the increasing importance of first party data. it is even more and more important to have a CRM to be able to aggregate this data, to be able to use it later.
Maxime Sincerny (1:00:13)
Mmh.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:00:21)
Exactly. And a little earlier, we were also talking about lead quality, sales quality, etc. This is a bit like how we can use CRM platforms, in the advertising case, for example, to return information from our contacts who have actually converted monetarily and not just converted through our primary conversion objective which can be a call, a form, a chat on the website as a secondary.
no matter what our conversion is, but which can lead us to send the right information to a Google of this world, to a Meta of this world, to say, here is my real client, and build me an audience that will be similar in essence to my clients who actually pay and not just the qualified people, but who did not end up buying.
Maxime Sincerny (1:01:08)
Exactly. Then, you know, with law 25 and everything, you know, I also think it's just going to be, if we can say, from worse to worse or from better to better depending on whether your vision as a consumer, do you prefer to have p...
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:01:20)
It's going to get better and better in terms of protecting privacy and not doing it without people knowing, that's really good at that level. People are becoming more and more educated about what they're presenting and realize that the product of these platforms is them in the end. It's just a matter of understanding that, if you will, and applying it around.
Maxime Sincerny (1:01:44)
Yes, exactly. I think that's also an interesting part to understand, it's that it gives more and more strength to the big platforms. It's silly, but you know because you have a kind of two meanings, if you like. You get to say like, we want to protect people's lives, we want to protect data, we want to limit access. The reality is, who is limiting access the most? It's the small and medium-sized businesses that don't have the means to invest billions in their tracking system.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:02:12)
Mmh.
Maxime Sincerny (1:02:12)
And then who do you give more power to? Sure, they have first party data, but who has first party data? Amazon, Facebook, Google. So, you're saying, all the people, you now have a cost because you have to install, precisely for cookie management, to protect consumers. You're right, you say to a company that makes 50 million per year, add that, it's going to cost you 300 dollars per year. It's going to cost you a set up to put all the set up precisely for tracking and everything. But you have to...
Xavier Champoux (1:02:17)
large companies.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:02:19)
Exact.
Maxime Sincerny (1:02:41)
take that obligation, then bring it to maybe the small business, I don't me who does whatever, a small single pet store all by myself, but for him it's even set-up, he has to do it, except that he doesn't make 50 million per year, he's maybe going to make a few thousand dollars per month, and a big part of that is just his salary that comes out directly, so you give him an additional burden to sell online immediately.
Then after that, your big platform, he's happy. Nobody has any data except me, I'm at Amazon. I have my own advertising platform on my platform. I know the purchases of all my consumers where they all live. I have, what, 85% of the households in the United States. Then it's also growing extremely quickly in Canada, I have an account on Amazon, I have a Prime on Amazon. All my information is there. But there, me, by having summer first parties as a...
monopoly, the reality is that at a certain point, I can say, listen to me, if I make the sale to you on Amazon, it's sure that I take a 25% rating, except that after that, has an advantage, advantages. You have no choice but to do business with the platform, at a certain point, if you want to make your product known, at least it's going towards that because my little website, I have difficulty triggering the first sales, I don't know. On Amazon, I'm lucky to put it. I'm going to pay a high cost for that.
Am I willing to get there, not make money just to get discovered? That's another discussion compared to that. Then you give them the power of all that, to say, you when I advertise on Amazon, I have the first party data, I can go straight to target if I have dog food, but I can go target those who have probably recently bought dog toys. So I that they have toys, my food can be interesting, I can show them banners Then Amazon, it's very exactly in its database.
Xavier Champoux (1:04:30)
Mmh.
Maxime Sincerny (1:04:37)
who recently bought some dog toys. It's super powerful, but you just gave all that power to Amazon. There's a pro and a con because they're going to want to get as much profit out of your pocket as possible to sell it.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:04:46)
It's coming back.
It comes down to aligning these objectives according to the channels, according to the strengths and weaknesses of each channel in your overall strategy or is Amazon a super good acquisition channel, but we know that in terms of margin, it costs excessively. How do you have a strategy where Amazon can't hurt your brand, but Amazon brings you new customers, that you make loyal to your own resources and that it costs you less margin and that your customer is happier in the end?
Xavier Champoux (1:04:59)
Mmh.
Mmh.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:05:20)
because the experience is as good or better, and it's not just the speed of the service, and the one-click that will make a difference.
Xavier Champoux (1:05:26)
Yeah. In that case, it's really trying to use Amazon as a platform where we can springboard to acquire our customers, then take them off the platform, then bring them back to ours.
Maxime Sincerny (1:05:38)
Exactly. And for that, that is to say, am I ready to be kiff-kiff on Amazon? You that my profit margin is my advertising spend. Am I ready to lose $5 per sale? After that, it is precisely the importance of... What is my maximum acquisition cost? Then there, it comes down to knowing these figures, etc., which is a job that we try to do strongly with all our clients, you Then I would say that the majority of the world, then it's normal, you don't know your figures on the last 50, you haven't been... You have been counted.
month by month and then channel by channel for years. But you build that understanding, at a certain point, it's really fun to be able to attack a market and say, all my competition is trying to spend as little as possible to acquire a new customer. But I can go up to $50 to acquire a new customer. I can spend $49 per acquisition. I can be everywhere at all times. I know my numbers. While my competition, they're all fighting to acquire customers at $19.
Then, it's just me who churns new customers who come in, then I work on a big list of customers, then these customers are in my list lines, are perhaps in my communities on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, they are perhaps interested in my content, they will perhaps repurchase 60 times during the next 10 years, all depending on what the product is, etc. But the more you know your numbers, then the more you just have a... well, you have an edge over all your competition, then you have a way to be able to attack the market that they can't even understand.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:06:37)
or as cheaply as possible.
Maxime Sincerny (1:07:05)
who are able to do it too.
Xavier Champoux (1:07:07)
I think that this also brings us back to the point of first-party data, that there are enormous advantages to acquiring your own data yourself, and then starting to accumulate it as early as possible to be able to get the maximum benefit from it in the long run.
Maxime Sincerny (1:07:21)
Exact.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:07:21)
Then you also see more and more Private Equity which are business groupings which are direct to consumer, that you groups which will buy dozens, fifteens, twenties, hundreds of e-commerce companies to beyond having the sales, to have what the company generates and the value of the company, the customer database of each of the stand-alone companies, put together, gives first party data.
incredible which is very very very monetizable in the end for these companies and that each company in their group takes more and more value because it benefits from the first party data of all the other companies in the group too. It becomes next level a little bit but in the end, when you have several companies below that all work independently, it becomes interesting to be able
Maxime Sincerny (1:08:02)
Exact.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:08:13)
centralize all this data precisely so that each of the companies that is part of the group can benefit from it to a certain extent. But again, take an example, you 28 companies it takes 28 times to make the foundation precisely with the technological tools that we were talking about so that ultimately we can share all this data between all the companies and all these data sets are actionable
at the level of all advertising accounts, at the level of all analytics accounts, then to share this information everywhere.
Xavier Champoux (1:08:44)
think it's very interesting to have the theoretical point of view. We applied it to large companies and then applied it to small companies because, in fact, it's not necessarily one for one for these things. In theory, there are a lot of concepts that are a bit difficult to see through the numbers. Then I had the pleasure and the chance to work with first party data banks from this bank in question.
Then, this data is very rare, it's very full of information, and it's up to you to sort of dissect it and find the information you want, but they're all there. It's not necessarily accessible to the small businesses or medium-sized businesses we're doing business with right now. So we're a bit at the mercy of the platforms in terms of targeting because very few businesses are starting to establish a CRM.
acquire their first, their first party dollar and all that. So what's interesting through all this is that several channels interact differently with each other. So through the customer journey, if we look at one touch point to another, some convert much more than others. So there are certain combinations that are more interesting than others. That's...
in the information that I was able to discover through this first party data, one of the conclusions that I drew from this, which was quite juicy in my eyes, is that there are enormous benefits to combining advertising with a bit of the voice of the business, search and display as the first touch point, but then pairing it with a...
a touch point that is part of affiliate marketing, so whether it's with other companies or influencers. This aspect a little bit like the opinion of the company itself, everyone knows that when you're a company your product is the best. So it's a little bit difficult to see through that which ones are actually the best. But when this opinion of excellence of the company is combined with the approval of a human.
So, whether it's an influencer or a person. There, there's a certain combination that's created where we start to believe these ads. There are a lot of parasocial phenomena, so a bit of a one-way relationship between you and the influencer. For some people, the influencer can even seem like friends, which is not reciprocal. For you, their opinion will be worth a lot. So, if it's...
approved by these people and then combined with the company's advertising, we have a pretty impressive conversion rate that is created, that we can take advantage of. It remains a concept, but it remains a pretty interesting concept that we can try to maximize by touching a little on online advertising, but also on people's opinions. So, it's...
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:11:58)
It remains important to follow trends at this level because in terms of advertising, it's all stock that we can reuse knowing that it works with the client or is it that, given the last few years, if you didn't have the beautiful, polished, professional content, etc., it didn't perform, whereas today, some of the content that performs the best, it's sure that it will look like it was made by...
your neighbor straight up and that they are going to be very very UGC and even voluntarily more Boboche if we want or is the world going to see it is content that is true it is Mr. and Mrs. Everyone who did it and it could be me and they can no longer associate themselves at least in this content than in something according to the brand too.
Xavier Champoux (1:12:30)
Exactly.
Exactly. People will relate much more to this kind of content that is created by other users than to the content that is very polished, as you say, from companies where you see that it was designed with the aim of convincing you and not designed with the aim of giving you an opinion on this service or this product. Also, what is interesting about affiliate marketing is that it is quite cheap. The upfront costs are quite low.
Subsequently, often, the agreements will be the number of consumers, new customers brought by the affiliate will have a rating on that. So, it is quite accessible as a channel. So, that's where it becomes interesting in addition, to use this content to retarget people afterwards. So, not just the influencer's content through his channel, but to reuse these videos, these images for...
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:13:31)
...
Xavier Champoux (1:13:35)
further in the conversion, use it for one's own benefit.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:13:41)
Exactly, then it also starts, content strategy when we move on to content, well how we are going to produce our content to maximize it for all the channels in relation to all the formats that each of the channels offers, you know yes, yes, we want...
Focus, let's say, we have an influencer campaign, precisely, we can have long content that is declined in short content, which is reused organically on one platform, in advertising on another, then to understand our system well and where this content can be reused, then pushed on the right touchpoints to the right people, precisely, and then to make everything interact together, that's a bit where the magic happens, if you will. I hate the word magic, but...
If there is one, it is when the whole system works in symbiosis.
Xavier Champoux (1:14:24)
That's the secret sauce.
Exactly, that's the secret. It's being able to reach the consumer through all channels, through all touch points, make them understand their presence, make them understand their service, educate the consumer, then hold their hand a little bit through the customer journey, through all the channels they prefer to use so that the consumer comes to the conclusion for themselves that they need our service or our product.
Maxime Sincerny (1:14:54)
yeah exactly
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:14:54)
Yes, exactly. It's about going through... Not forgetting that precisely, not taking for granted that everyone will understand your offer, your service, or will have the need immediately. It's always considering all parts of your funnel, where you're going to want to educate, you're going to want to clarify, demonstrate your USP and make customers understand why they need your solution. After that, everything that's the loyalty side, etc. Everything that Max also explained, which will come from it.
of several touchpoints, of word of mouth, of everything that will come out of the web afterwards which will help to amplify the message and then the solution as such.
Xavier Champoux (1:15:33)
It's always a pleasure to talk about marketing and commerce with you.
Marc-Antoine Rioux (1:15:38)
Yes, same, thank you very much for taking part in the exercise. We will meet again for the next episode, number 5, which should be with a person who has had several touch points and who has a very, very impressive customer journey, Alexandre Champagne, who will be with us for the next episode. Thank you very much Xavier. We will talk to you again in a future episode.
Xavier Champoux (1:16:01)
It's a pleasure.
Yes.
